CLOK BBS

Minor Beacon has been updated. It now has an additional 30-second effect which reduces incoming attack accuracy, negates the defense pushdown effect of being under attack by multiple foes, and provides a large amount of light. Energy usage has been increased to 30.

The idea is that it is difficult to focus attacks on someone who is glowing like a small sun. Minor Beacon should no longer be the Death Wish ability it was before, or at least less so.

I've been considering that if this is called "Minor" beacon, it got my imagination going as to what a Major Beacon ability would look like, or do.

In my imagination I view something like this:
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A fierce battle rages with undead, templars and monks scattered chaotically across the battlefield, the tide of the darkness seeming to be unending with the ranks of the church slowly seeming to crumble beneath the sheer numbers.

Just as one portion of the battle lines seem ready to crack, a massive pillar of light suddenly bursts into the sky, ascending from a lone templar amid the battle. Several of the undead flee in panic, and the wounds of several close allies are suddenly healed.

The templar turns, hurling discs of light into the undead lines, cutting down many of the undead in swathes. Some of the larger creatures of the dark manage to push toward the templar, drawing them off of their targets toward the shining pillar... however, bathed in the light, the templar moves quickly, maneuvering between his foes with ease as he cuts into them.

The inspiring tactic provides enough time for the battle line to reform, energized by the leadership and example of their ally who has sacraficed himself for their good.

A few moments later the shining templar falls, completely exhausted to the ground, his allies carrying him back to safety behind the now strong battlefront for him to rest from the excursion.
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Basically a very powerful ability that can turn a battle, scatter the enemy and draw the attacks of those that don't flee off of their allies like Minor Beacon does. It could heal group members to a degree due to the surge of thaumaturgy, and cause a pair of sun discs to be automaticaly hurled at enemies. It would also provide a big temporary boost to combat, but should quickly drain the templar of all energy. This would cause it to only be able to be used tactically, otherwise it would be suicide, or a last ditch effort to turn a losing battle into a win.

It would also be cool if this was done in Shadgard, then everyone in Shadgard would see a pillar of light shooting into the air from somewhere nearby, if they weren't in the same room.

mmmmmm major bacon......

And the balance skill to major beacon? The dark version if you like to keep equilibrium? A force of nether wouldn't work because Thaumaturgy always trumps Sorcery so it'd be something from cryomancy. A massive black gate of falling ice shards perhaps? A snowstorm full of wights appearing?

What's the balance skill for Minor Beacon?

Does there have to be a 'dark' equivalent to everything? I say nay.

Not really. That would imply that the Church and Rooks are polar opposites, where they aren't. It'd be better if there were unique things instead of just mirrored abilities.

...that said, I would love there to be a deathknight/dark paladin type

Claw are pretty much the opposite of Templars though. Sneaky assassins who sue dark magic versus knights walking around in the open spreading Light, minor healing and wiping out nether creatures. There doesn't have to be a counter or balance skill however RP-wise the Claw at least would research a way to deal with the threat posed by the major beacon. Presumably they wouldn't see minor beacon that much of a threat as all it does is focus them on one target and stun them a bit as well as strengthen the Templar.

Claw assassins aren't tainted by definition, nor do they make direct use of nethrim, so they don't have a whole lot to fear from something like Major Beacon. Necromancers and sorcerers who make use of nethrim servants are the ones who should be worried about something like this.

I'm also of the opinion that there doesn't need to be a "dark" counterpart to every "light" or vice versa. Thaumaturgy and sorcery are not direct opposites, as mentioned here. Those with thaumaturgy are often employed against those with power over nether because thaumaturgy is so effective against nether. Sorcerers will always have trouble against thaumaturges - while sorcery is extremely powerful, diverse, and the easiest type of channeling to wield, the primary drawback is that a thaumaturge can come in and ruin their day. I feel no need to give sorcerers (that is, anyone who practices sorcery, not just Rooks) some kind of balance to their weakness against thaumaturgy beyond what they have already (high power, diversity, ease of learning sorcery) . Not everything has a direct counter or balancing factor.

So does that mean that 4 or 5 skilled rooks couldn't defeat 1 templar, magic only? Or could they, given enough time?

Given enough time and also the fact that Thaumaturgy doesn't actively, during the normal course of combat destroy nether they could. The Templar can heal himself and deal with minions and the like and of course has some heavy armour and some nasty weapons but agaisnt odds of 5 to 1 he'd need that major beacon ability to win I think. Depending on the respective skills of the combatants and how many skills each sorcerer has. If say you have a templar with three channels of thaumaturgy against five sorcerers with one channel each the templar'd probably win.

Depends on their skill. A single Rook could defeat five Templar, if the Rook was powerful and the Templar not. Toe-to-toe, given equal skill levels and typically equipped and trained, a Templar would have an edge on a single Rook. It still wouldn't be a curbstomp - rooks have some very impressive abilities available to them that Templar have no specific counters to.

If by "magic only" you mean that both the Rook and the Templar only have magic, and nothing else, available to them, I would certainly bet on the Rook, even if the Templar was more skilled. Thaumaturgy doesn't grant immunity to nether by any means, and Rooks aren't required to be nether-tainted. A magic-only Templar with no gear would have little of use against a non-tainted Rook with no gear, and the Templar would quickly be reduced to a mound of gelatinous nether-melted goo. Spear of Light and Sun Disc take a lot of energy to cast, and are only particularly useful against tainted creatures.

It should also be noted that sorcery-based guilds tend to be powerful on their own, while Templar are more geared toward being group-oriented. Templar have a focus on drawing attacks to themselves, guarding others, and buffing their group. Their particularly powerful abilities, Spear of Light and Sun Disc, are mostly useful against nethrim NPCs rather than player characters. Templar aren't necessarily powerful one-man armies, though have quite good durability. If you want raw power in a single individual, look to Dwaedn Wyr, Coalition Mercenaries, Elemancers, and Rook Parlour.

Templar do great in the "PvE" game and can make a group amazingly awesome, but against other player characters, even sorcerous ones, I wouldn't say they're top-tier.

i'll be more specific, let's say you have 5 major tainted rooks able to channel 2 channels each, with no souls to spare, against 1 templar with 3 channels of thaumaturgyn with a longsword. Would the templar win? or would the rooks overpower him?

Since everything in CLOK is odds-based, there's no way to say for certain. I'd certainly bet on the 5 rooks though. 5 on one is not a good situation, regardless of skill levels on either side. The Templar could get lucky and have a Sun Disc bounce and kill them all in one shot, yes (highly unlikely). It's more likely the Templar would dish some good damage and maybe kill one or some of them, after which he would find multiple blobs of freezing nether heading for him, pushing down his defense and melting his face off (and each one melting him for several rounds after contact - go Infused Nether!). And that's if the sorcerers were lazy. Ideally they'd all have familiars/animates with them as well, further pushing down the Templar's defense and adding more attacks/damage, and at least one would probably throw down Minor Haunting, which could severely hamper or remove the Templar's ability to dodge (though he would be more resistant to the fear effects, or immune with Chant: Courage, and would only be effected by the physically grasping hands proc of Haunting). Shadow Martyr and armor enhanced with Ice barbs would significantly boost the Rooks' survivability for that first Sun Disc. With some good armor the templar could probably survive long enough to take down the minions and possibly get some of the Rooks, but he would be hard-pressed to come out the victor in this encounter.

One rule of CLOK is that no matter how skilled/powerful you are and how pitiful your foes are individually, being significantly outnumbered is never a good thing. Elemancers are probably the best-equipped to deal with large groups of enemies, with their multiple novae/bouncing/splash attacks/effects.

I think you may be taking the "light trumps nether" concept the wrong way. This is in regards to the substances Light and nether themselves, not their wielders. Light coming into contact with nether is not going to go well for the nether, but this is just in the case of the two energies/forces/whatever collding. This doesn't mean that wielders of thaumaturgy have an "I WIN" button against wielders of sorcery. Thaumaturges are just likely to have a significant edge, particularly if the sorcerer is also tainted, in which case they'll take more damage from Light and suffer a few additional penalties from things like Minor Beacon and Halo.

Just to comment on this... We keep discussing being tainted as if it is a choice. In many cases it is not. One of the great things about this game is that we're not always given the choice. Sometimes greatness (or less than greatness) is thrust upon us.

I thought something was wrong, it seemed like Templar's really did have an insta-win button once they started channeling, and Rooks were at a disadvantage, enough of a disadvantage where only significant skill could save them.

[quote=Acarin]Just to comment on this... We keep discussing being tainted as if it is a choice. In many cases it is not. One of the great things about this game is that we're not always given the choice. Sometimes greatness (or less than greatness) is thrust upon us.[/quote]Can you explain what your 'many cases' are even referring to?

[quote=hadesfire]I thought something was wrong, it seemed like Templar's really did have an insta-win button once they started channeling, and Rooks were at a disadvantage, enough of a disadvantage where only significant skill could save them.[/quote]Do you still think that they do?

Nah, now that Rias explained it, i can see that Rooks are at a disadvantage, but that can easily be fixed by more training.

[quote=hadesfire]Nah, now that Rias explained it, i can see that Rooks are at a disadvantage, but that can easily be fixed by more training.[/quote]What disadvantage do the Rooks have, or do you mean the Tainted(They are two different things all together)? I think you can be Tainted but not even be a Rook.

yeah, tainted and Rook are different things, but Thaum beats Nether, so the templars would be made to defeat nethrim creatures, like the rook minions and have a slight edge due to their healing factor, both of which can be offset with poultices and dragging around 4 or 5 bodies.

There could be Tainted Shar and I am sure there could even be tainted Elemancers or Tainted Utasa, so why focus only on Tainted Rooks first of all?

Now for Templars to face off against a Rook with a Minion, the Templar starts at a disadvantage, 2v1. Until the Templar kills the minion, the Templar is suffering a penalty from being assaulted from multiple enemies and having to deal possibly twice as much damage then normal to finish a fight, killing the minion and then the Rook. The boon of Thaumaturgy to finish off the minion quickly, at the vast cost of energy before it is an even fight with the Rook. A Rook could be in plate armor and use melee weapons, not just sorcery.

It is not the Rook who has to make up for lost ground, but it is the Templar who has to work to catch up to the Rook even with Thaurmaturgy.

I don't see it that way, since Minions are Nethrim, therefore the Templar wouldn't need to use vast energy, just a few seconds of attacking it, then the rook and Templar are one on one, not to mention that Rook's can use plate and melee, Templars have abilities relating to them, and you're assuming the Templar doesn't have his horse.

Each cast of Spear of Light or Sun Disc costs a set amount of energy and takes quite a bit. When have you seen a Templar one shot a animated minion of rivaled skill, if it is in truth easy to do such to higher end minions I will recant. Can you list the weapon abilities that Templars have other than Shield Charge? Rooks could use Ice Barbs to increase damage taken more so than the Templar or possibly channel Shadow Martyr to reduce it even further(I am focusing on melee as I don't remember sorcery casts being worth the energy while casting at an opponent in iron armor). The Rook, like the Templar can be mounted. The Templar's only ability for riding, that I know of, enhances how quickly they train it.

Maybe I am over looking a lot of things but, can someone show me where I am wrong?