Push Daggers

[Nootau]

This concept was started within another topic: viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2772, and I think it deserves its own area to be talked about and flushed out.

How about push daggers? These are fairly traditional brawling weapons that would be in theme with the game. I'd like to see two variations as well: The traditional flat short bladed version and a thinner slightly longer version (maybe adapted to shar) that chinks like a stiletto. Available in the guild shop of course and possibility by specialized crafting means for rarer materials... and not via traders.

From wikipedia, the ultimate source for all things not necessarily reliable:
"A push dagger (alternately known as: push knife, gimlet knife, fist knife, Stoßdolch (Ger.), push dirk, T-handled knife or punch dagger) is a short-bladed dagger with a "T" handle designed to be grasped in the hand so that the blade protrudes from the front of one's fist, typically between the 2nd and 3rd finger.[1][2] Over the centuries, the push dagger has gone up and down in popularity as a close-combat weapon for civilians and selected military forces.

The push dagger is thought to have originated from the Indian subcontinent, and is related in principle to the 16th-century Indian katar (कटार), or punching sword.[1][2] However, the katar is gripped by two close-set vertical bars, while a push dagger uses a T-handle and a blade that protrudes between the fingers when properly gripped."

This seems to be a more intuitive (and mobile) specialty weapon for assassins versus the heavier katar which can really only effectively be used for thrusting.

On the topic of push daggers, that might be something that would be fair to add, though for the sake of balance it might be good if the dagger did less damage than a stiletto, as well as received a penalty to parrying, and was only capable of piercing damage. The lack of any real hand guard seems like it would make parrying much more difficult, if not down right dangerous to do. Also, if the push daggers aren't going to be craftable by Traders, then it might be fair to require a specialised guild ability that allows a Claw to craft them, due to the fact that specialised weapon crafting is the territory of the Traders.

I'm not sure how much a Katar weighs, but I can't imagine it's that heavy.

[Acarin]

Posted this in your other thread, Noot. Thought I should post it here as well:

Daggers already have a penalty to parrying as to katars and it's fairly sizeable. Landion changed it before he left. I could also see a push dagger being used for a full range of attacks including slashing if necessary as, since they are brawling weapons, they can be used as an extension of the fist. It would make sense from the name for them only to be piercing but maybe not in reality. I would think push daggers would not interfere with blade slap as katars do. The reason is that one can still open their hand to parry while gripping the t-portion of the push knife between there fingers. I would think that the bottom of the handle may even make it easier to parry as it could be used to intercept/push away attacks even on the sharp end of blades. You are correct though. If you tried to parry with the blade itself it might be more difficult, so there could be a Shar or monk specific benefit for using one (i.e. no penalty to open hand parry, or even slightly increased). As far as damage, I don't see why it would be worse than a dagger. You can likely generate more force behind each strike with its positioning compared to a dagger and the blade itself is about the same. So, katars should do more damage than a dagger (and they do a bit more right now if I'm not mistaken) due to the size of the blade, and I think push daggers would be about the same but might have better parry/chinking due to their construction as size. Again, I don't think they should be craftable but disseminated in the same ways katars are currently available.

[Rias]

I think push daggers would be cool as a more chink-focused brawling weapon, but they'd likely do less damage than a katar. I'm not sold on the blade-slap-while-wielding idea; it would likely have a pretty lousy parry rating.

[Lysse]

From what I've read, a katar traditionally has a wide blade which coupled with the amount of force one can put behind the attacks gives it it's striking power. A push dagger seems to have a much narrower (by comparison) blade, which would lend it better armor chink rating but overall less damage.

Being able to bladeslap while wielding push daggers doesn't sound like it would work very well, though. Unless every time you used bladeslap/arrow deflection while wielding a push dagger, there was a chance that it's jarred from your hand, due to the awkward grip combined with the parrying.

[Acarin]

The blade of a push dagger doesn't have to be less wide, just shorter for balance. There are many designs for katars and not all of them have extremely wide blades, but that really doesn't matter. You obviously agree that katars should do more damage than daggers which they already do (although not much).

I don't see why a push dagger would do less damage than a dagger (not a katar). It is still a dagger blade and it has more force behind it on strikes than a dagger would because of the way it is held, used, and its orientation. It should do equivalent damage to dagger for the sake of balance (but in reality might do more).

As far as parrying, the end T-portion of the handle would be pushed against your hand/fingers (and the blade away) for open parries, so it's unlikely that it would be jarred out. With a wide grip it would probably be stable against your hand. Also, that grip doesn't look at all awkward to me. It looks more practical than that of a dagger for direct (and by this I mean linear) combat.

When you parry (in unarmed combat), you generally try to push with (i.e. in the same direct of) an attack from a 90 degree angle to that target to divert it. This would not imbalance such a weapon at all, but then we still haven't completely defined the physics of how a blade slap works. If it's more of a block, i.e. moving against the weapon or the arm that is swinging the weapon, I still don't see this being a problem.

I'm not understanding how a dagger with some decent parry that is usable for this increased parry by only two guilds is not balanced as that seems to be your opinion. If you want to talk about imbalance, I can go on for quite a while starting with abilities I have seen from your own guild, but there's no point in doing that.

[Jaster]

On push daggers doing less damage... what Rias was saying is that he thinks push daggers would be cool as a more chink-oriented brawling weapon, which I assume means he'd like them to be on the same level as widow's hairpins when it comes to chinking. Hairpins have the best chance to chink, and because of that they have the lowest damage potential (only 15 per hit). So if a push dagger were to chink at the same level as a hairpin (making it a chink focused brawling weapon) its damage potential would have to be lower than a regular dagger for the sake of balance.