Commercialized and Quaffed: Ability Suggestions/Concerns

[Laroremas]

With the recent (and future) sale of bottled Bear's Strength and Combat Adrenaline, I thought it would be nice to entertain the prospect of giving Dwaedn Wyr a little something for being possessive of the genuine article.

1) Bear's Strength: no downside to using this save for the sizable Apathy it induces, not sure about negative affects the potion will have.

Suggestions: Double the length of Bear's Strength when used as a shout OR have the effectiveness of the Bear's Strength potion halved in regards to that which the shout provides.

That's really it for this one; the shout is already very good and is arguably a Dwaedn's greatest asset, so it'll be interesting to see every mercenary or combatant chugging potions to gain that edge for themselves.

2) Combat Adrenaline: like the advertised potion, this ability has the potential to lower a Dwaedn's skills for a short while after rapid use. Easily avoided.

Suggestions: Have the Combat Adrenaline potion heal 5 less energy and permit three to be quaffed in rapid succession OR only two to be quaffed in rapid succession and heal the same as the genuine Combat Adrenaline shout.

- Random Dwaedn ability suggestions -

Relentless Pursuit
Pre-reqs: ??? (a high Melee value, perhaps)

The berserker's lust for combat lends way to an undeniable desire for engagement. When in TACTICS OFFENSE, grant the berserker a 50% chance to ignore the AVOID position when attempting to attack someone currently in it.

I've no idea how calculations regarding POSITION AVOID work, but, I think the basic idea behind this passive is pretty clear.

Call of the Beast (definitely need a better name)
Pre-reqs: ??? (none, probably)
A berserker in sufficient enough harmony with their surroundings and the animals they strive to do battle with has given them a basic knowledge of various ancient calls to attract them to combat. Using call <name of beast> when in the appropriate environ will attract a beast of the berserker's choice for combat. Can only be used once per thirty minutes (or an hour, to discourage using this to farm pelts or whatever, not that any Dwaedn would do that anyway). Invoking one of these ancient calls, those designed to incite the old animal spirits, will leave the berserker vulnerable for a time, granting the called beast an opening (or several) for attack.

The above one should solve the issue of relatively sparse availability of certain Animal Spirits as well as make it fairly easy to include new ones. It can draw from an already existing spawn table to determine their rolls.

That's all for now. If I can come up with not-so-boring and not-so-overpowered ability suggestions for this guild, I'll probably post them here.

[sona]

I think there was a mention that potion abuse may very well have addiction properties, and accompanied side effects. the strength one may very well be similar to steroid use. No further information was made public that I'm aware, and even the hinting at addiction was somewhere on the bbs I believe. So, that needs to be taken into account. I wonder if shouts will be made part of generalization, or if it's going to be druidized/magic'd claused.

[Laroremas]

I HOPE shouts aren't generalized. I'm pretty sure they won't be.

I understand the strength shout POTION will have drawbacks to use but it sounded as though it would not happen the first time around. If you're going to use something like a strength vial, it is probably going to be to kill something (or someone) big and so continued use of the stuff is discouraged by default. That was the reason for suggesting some sort of additional drawback for the strength potions themselves because it cheapens a major aspect of the Dwaedn Wyr guild as it exists. (or rather, as I understand it from the post I saw talking about them)

[Vinz]

Don't worry, if there are side affects you quaffers will be the first to know ;). Also they are nonreplacable items for sale for one more day. its not going to replace your whole guilds ability layouts.

[Laroremas]

Don't worry, if there are side affects you quaffers will be the first to know ;). Also they are nonreplacable items for sale for one more day. its not going to replace your whole guilds ability layouts.

I understand that, but it is also my understanding that eventually players will be able to make these things, unless I misread the post in question.

[Sneaky]

It's worth pointing out that this guild isn't the only one who's abilities are being generalized. In fact I'd say this guild is probably still going to be looking pretty nice after generalization goes live. It's true that you'll be able to make some of the shouts, but they require specialized training which you'll need to spend ability points on, as well as time grinding herbalism no doubt and time to search for herbs in the first place. Being able to type a command and have it right there at your finger tips is a lot better than having to carry supplies around and make them on the spot and drink them, not to mention the sideaffects are only due to the potions, not the shouts iirc.

[sona]

+1 sneaky

[Laroremas]

It's worth pointing out that this guild isn't the only one who's abilities are being generalized. In fact I'd say this guild is probably still going to be looking pretty nice after generalization goes live. It's true that you'll be able to make some of the shouts, but they require specialized training which you'll need to spend ability points on, as well as time grinding herbalism no doubt and time to search for herbs in the first place. Being able to type a command and have it right there at your finger tips is a lot better than having to carry supplies around and make them on the spot and drink them, not to mention the sideaffects are only due to the potions, not the shouts iirc.

Anything Animal Spirit-related shouldn't be generalized; it is distinctly Druidic and learning to use them requires special training that it only makes sense for a Dwaedn Wyr, someone in constant communion with said Animal Spirits, might be able to use.

You're right though, the guild looks good. The shouts have side effects (mainly not being able to use them very often in succession) and they won't be as severe as repeated potion use, but like I said above, odds are someone isn't going to chug strength potions rapidly and the benefit they provide would be significant if it is precisely how Bear's Strength functions.

Speaking to the degree of people investing skill points into Herbalism and the appropriate abilities required to eventually make these potions:

Odds are, the potions will be sold. There is huge potential to gain a fair amount of riln from making them. Furthermore, generalization, as has been said, will introduce the prospect of refunding your ability points; even if it takes a whole month to refund them, that possibility exists and the "risk" associated with investing in that particular line of abilities, especially considering the number of people likely to do so, is really low.

That reminds me, though, that I'm pretty interested to see how addiction works.

[Sneaky]

Maybe they use the same mechanics, and maybe they don't, but they aren't called shouts. They're herbalism abilities. Like making speed or crack , but with organic materials. There's no druidic association required, so I don't think you've anything to worry about if that's what you're concerned with.

[Laroremas]

Maybe they use the same mechanics, and maybe they don't, but they aren't called shouts. They're herbalism abilities. Like making speed or crack , but with organic materials. There's no druidic association required, so I don't think you've anything to worry about if that's what you're concerned with.

I understand there is no "Druidic association" with these potions; any mentions of Druidic-related abilities in my last post was to address your mention of the prospective generalization of "shouts" and to illustrate that it probably would not happen due to their nature and whatnot.

My concern was simple: creating potions that do precisely the same thing as guild specific abilities (those that will probably remain guild specific due to their Druidic nature) cheapens members of the Dwaedn Wyr significantly, as Bear's Strength is one of their most useful abilities.

I believe the purpose of the generalization of abilities is to provide more options for everyone, not to lower the value and draw to joining a specific guild because you could very well get their best assets elsewhere. I was merely attempting to illustrate the potential it has to alienate a certain group of people. I'm not at all really concerned about these potions being a thing, but rather, the nature of the side affects that using them would entail.

No one is going to use them to grind skills. They are going to use them to do big fights and whatnot. These big fights probably don't happen often for the average user. Where is the threat and drawback to using these potions, that which evidently do precisely what it is two Dwaedn shouts already do, other than spending riln? (or investing refundable ability points to make them yourself, even)

You finish that "big fight" successfully with your shiny bottled buff and don't need to chug another potion again for a while. My primary point was that, if the strength potion does precisely what it is the Bear's Strength shout does and addiction and drawbacks exist as possibilities, the nature and scenarios that likely call for the potion's use would likely not call for having to use more than one. As such is the case, without knowing precisely how addiction will work or what the drawbacks are, I was merely expressing the potential to devalue a huge attraction to the Dwaedn Wyr if there isn't some consideration taken with these pretty clear facts in mind.

I probably posted the original post a bit early considering no one really knows how addiction/drawbacks will work, but, the thoughts and concerns are all valid and I'd been debating posting some new ability ideas. I'm positive Rias (or Jirato, or both) have taken into consideration the fact that the strength potion will pretty much just be a veritable "raid buff" in their present incarnation, not discounting the occasional utility use (pulling wagons, anyone?) so I'm not too concerned at all.

[Rias]

With the recent (and future) sale of bottled Bear's Strength and Combat Adrenaline

There's more than one source of super strength and energy gains, so these weren't just ports of the shouts specifically. The shouts use the standard code systems that apply super strength and burst energy gains, which are standard systems because they're used in multiple places by various effects and conditions. So, I wouldn't call these "bottled [Dwaedn Ability]s", because these particular benefits mentioned provided by said shouts are not unique to Dwaedn.

That said, I can certainly understand the concern, and it's absolutely a valid one.

Firstly please note that this is a special event festival that will only last a few days, and only so many potions can be purchased per customer, so their quantity is fairly limited. Amoxtli is also an especially capable alchemist - his potions are exceptionally potent and powerful. You won't see things like these vials rolling off the PC production line when the advanced herbalism abilities are released. (Note the nice prominent sign saying in no uncertain terms how Amoxtli refuses to give up his recipes and secrets to anyone.)

Bear's Strength and Bear's Blessing are more potent than the potions, (especially when combined). They also don't require carrying, consuming, and replenishing supplies. They can be used in an instant with no hassle when required, no fumbling to retrieve and ingest an item, no worry of "did I just waste a limited resource that I should have saved for later". The side effects of the herbalism PC-produced potions have yet to be hammered out but will certainly require at least a little weighing of when to use the potions/whatever else we call them. Amoxtli's have fewer side effects/diminishing returns, but again, they're unique to Amoxtli and are available as part of a relatively short one-time event in limited quantities. (This isn't to say he won't ever come back in future festivals or whatnot, but he won't be showing up often.)

Relentless Pursuit

Just as an FYI, Bullrush is a great way to dramatically improve your chances of closing on that pesky ranged/avoid foe. This might be a neato benefit for some of the specific animal blessings.

Call of the Beast

I had some tasks worked up that had what I considered the significant benefit of spawning critters that were not as easy to find in current hunting (i.e. serpents - this was before the Gaslight Swamp area so the only serpent option was basilisks at the time). There were problems with the tasks so they were unfortunately taken out until they could be refined. Anyway, I think the concept has merit.

I wonder if shouts will be made part of generalization, or if it's going to be druidized/magic'd claused

They won't be generalized. They're either drawing on supernatural forces, or utilizing behaviors and traditions that are more particular to the Dwaedn Wyr specific culture, history, and way of life to the point that I feel fine keeping them exclusive. It's one thing to be a guy who's good at fighting. It's another to be a Dwaedn Wyr with a rich history of traditions, heroic past warriors of legend, and Animal Spirits to draw on for inspiration and power.

[Laroremas]

With the recent (and future) sale of bottled Bear's Strength and Combat Adrenaline

There's more than one source of super strength and energy gains, so these weren't just ports of the shouts specifically. The shouts use the standard code systems that apply super strength and burst energy gains, which are standard systems because they're used in multiple places by various effects and conditions. So, I wouldn't call these "bottled [Dwaedn Ability]s", because these particular benefits mentioned provided by said shouts are not unique to Dwaedn.

Oops, I had no idea.

Thanks for the reply. I'm going to rob this Amoxicillin guy.