Why don't you group?

Post by **Rias** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:59 pm

I've noticed the vast majority of the time, people venture out into dangerous territory alone. Just curious about why that is. Does everyone just want to be self-sufficient? Do we have a world of people with Lone Wolf Syndrome? Do you feel bad when your friend dies, so you'd rather just leave them at home? Do you not want to share the loot? Do you not want to share the glory? Should we make CLOK: Singleplayer Edition?

We've tried to make group hunting fun and useful. For instance, when group hunting ...

- You can flank opponents distracted by your other group members.
- You can guard ranged combatants and spellcasters in your group, keeping them nice and safe.
- You can push down an enemy's defense if multiple people are attacking it.
- You can assist a group member, making their target your own, for assisted coordination.

One big reason I ask is that I'm working on the Mummers guild, and a lot of their abilities will be mostly useful in the form of helping out a group. The sad thing is, nobody ever seems to group up!

I'm surprised people don't ask for group assistance when working on task creatures. I'm particularly baffled at how often this happens during invasion circumstances. I'll often see individuals run away from everyone else in order to plunge into the fray alone. (I'm always filled with an immense sense of satisfaction when these people die, I have no shame admitting.)

So, what is it we're doing wrong? This is supposed to be a multiplayer game where people do stuff together!

Sionyl · Post by **Sionyl** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:10 pm

This is a problem I had when I played DragonRealms. With the skill system of DR, grouping did nothing but reduce your skill gain. I don't know how many people here played that game and equate the skill system here as a similar thing but I know that I did when I first started playing. It wasn't readily apparent what gains could be made when grouping. I have grouped to get tasks done but otherwise I have tried to train alone so I can maximize my skill gain.

Perhaps you could clarify for us that skill gain doesn't get hindered by grouping?

Xzean · Post by **Xzean** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:12 pm

Any game in which skill gains are based on skill use instead of an exp bar that fills up faces this very problem. If you can gain more "exp" (aka skills) then you do when you group, most people will choose to go alone.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:17 pm

I'm constantly trying to get people to take me or go with me to places. Monk for hire, except you don't have to pay me. I'll come heal you for free and as a bonus, I can protect myself 90 percent of the time. TAKE ME WITH YOU!!!!

kthxbai.

Post by **Rias** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:17 pm

I'll happily take suggestions here too, by the way.

Some kind of "comaradarie" skillgain bonus when grouping with other PCs?

The only loss in skillgain I can think of from grouping is that stuff tends to die faster, so you don't get as many hits, I guess. On the other hand, stuff spawns faster the more people there are in the area, so that should help balance that out.

Xzean · Post by **Xzean** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:19 pm

We have just a little experience with this but Sionyl and I found that the spawn rate did not increase with both of us in the abandoned caravan.

A simple boost to the rate a skill is learned when grouping with another would solve the problem nicely.

Sionyl · Post by **Sionyl** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:19 pm

What you pointed out is exactly why I think most people solo. The fact that you won't be getting as many hits in and as such less skill gain equates to many people that they shouldn't group.

I think it would be wonderful if you had a camaraderie skill bonus, it would be unique to this game as far as I know and I would definitely take advantage of it.

Evelyn · Post by **Evelyn** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:35 pm

I enjoy fighting in a group. The only reason Eve doesn't ask Lae to come along is because she worries too much that something bad will happen, like a roc will kidnap her to it's nest forever.

Also I guess because Evelyn likes to help so much she forgets to ask for help her self... Silly Evelyn.

Acarin · Post by **Acarin** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:17 pm

I sometimes hunt with spearhead, but I think for me it's that not many people (that Acarin tolerates) hunt what I do AND if I were to drop down to something easier, I wouldn't be receiving any skill gains.

Lalora · Post by **Lalora** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:53 pm

Prepare for Lalora to drag Lae with her anytime she's given poachers as a task.

Jaster · Post by **Jaster** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:53 pm

Jaster is just a BAMF.

Kiyaani · Post by **Kiyaani** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:08 pm

I always ask Lae and she always says JASTER WONT LET ME LEAVE THE HOUSE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! so... not my fault. I often ask Spearhead or Eve for the harder tasks as well.

rhunara · Post by **rhunara** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:46 pm

For me, the main reason is that I don't really hunt that much (yet). I mostly do tasks, and those are not to hunt (so far). It's pointless to have even someone like Lae tag along with me just for me to go somewhere dangerous and survey. Well, at least for her. If there were other Elemancers doing tasks AND there were a "group task" system, then I'd probably consider it.

Grouping has to benefit all parties. A lot of what you do in this game is designed to be a time sink (tasks, crafting, hunting, etc). How many of those things really need a group?

The other thing is that there is no personal communication. I know it's your choice, but you're shooting yourself in the foot here as far as grouping. I'm not going to ask for a group over ESP. I almost never play the type of character that would post a personal ad or join a dating site. It's essentially the same thing.

rhunara · Post by **rhunara** » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:58 pm

As a follow-up to the personal communication bit - it always feels weird to go out of my way to talk to a stranger. If there's roleplaying incentive behind it, I have no problem having my characters be social. But if the reason is to hunt, well, it just seems very OOC. In the games where I play social characters, it's because the environment facilitates the interaction. Sometimes it's a common stereotypical location where people meet, like a tavern or town square. Sometimes it's a common hunting ground.

Also, one more thing. It's hard to know what peoples' relative skills are. Not everyone utilizes the profile command, and most of those that do don't utilize the actual useful (with respect to party finding) settings.

Post by **Rias** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:38 am

Sounds like we need some more events to draw people together.

Rasui · Post by **Rasui** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:59 am

My character is too old for hunting, at least he would never choose to. I have had some wonderful socialization with other Rooks that have been willing to philosophize though, and interactions with others as well. Some events or quests that require group effort I think would go a long way to getting people to know one another. I have seen many different people from when I last played, so it may just be that people do not know each other, and have had few reasons to get together.

Jaren · Post by **Jaren** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:12 am

When it comes to grouping I have a few concerns. For one thing, I tend to play lonewolf characters (with a few exceptions) and grouping with someone, when your character is super anti-social, can be awkward. The other problem is advantages and disadvantages.

For me, the first thing I enjoy doing in any RPG is to min and max my stats (yes, I am admittedly a min/maxer). I LOVE solving the stats puzzle and learning about all the systems and behind the scene dice rolls. In real life, I also enjoy puzzles and when playing a board game or a strategy game, I love using my wit to gain an advantage over others. I also enjoy RP-ing once in a while and I have made several characters that do just that. (They have horrible stats.)

The point is, while by myself, I can gain skill faster and skill up longer without worrying about staying in character or whether or not the person I am partying with is also getting skill. By myself, I can also choose which skills I want to raise and how I want to raise them (Once again without worrying about having an RP reason to do so.)

For example, why is Jaren wearing full armor to more easily train dodge or why is Jaren attacking the same creature for 10 minutes to maximize "skill per hour". Granted, I could make up some RP reason for it... but what if I don't want to feel like I have to? Events are fun once in a while but truth be told, I normally don't play events to gain rewards or skill, I play them to just RP or to help develop my character.

Overall, the problem for me is time/effort vs reward. Solo play takes less effort and has better rewards.

Evelyn · Post by **Evelyn** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:44 am

I don't quite understand why everything has to be about skill gains, grouping should be about having fun, I used to love the old events where everyone worked together. I remember when the stone canyon first opened and a big group of us went exploring. I miss those times. We do need something to bring folk together more.

rhunara · Post by **rhunara** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:34 am

[quote=Evelyn]I don't quite understand why everything has to be about skill gains, grouping should be about having fun, I used to love the old events where everyone worked together. I remember when the stone canyon first opened and a big group of us went exploring. I miss those times. We do need something to bring folk together more.

[/quote]

It's not just about skill gains.

There are other concerns:

* 'outmatched' considerations (I'm sorry, but if you can kill a grizzly bear, you're way more powerful than my character, so hunting is going to be very one-sided)
* task aligning (We have different tasks, how do we do them together in a way that is mutually beneficial?)
* social prerequisites for grouping (Now that I've found a good candidate, how should I meet this person and ask them to go slaughter a bunch of beings?)
* actual logistical issues (how do I communicate with group candidates to get started? crystal amulets are nice for private comms and all once they are negotiated, but unless you want to advertise your hunt over the public esp channel or just happen to find your group members, how do you organize the actual group?)

Evelyn · Post by **Evelyn** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:44 am

I've often took newer characters hunting at lower level places, like the carriers and such. I don't mind helping people hunt at all, no matter what they are hunting/doing.

Lae · Post by **Lae** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:03 am

There are other concerns:

* 'outmatched' considerations (I'm sorry, but if you can kill a grizzly bear, you're way more powerful than my character, so hunting is going to be very one-sided)

- IMO, not all people are concerned about gaining skill. In my case I'm just trying to make things easier for someone else. If I don't mind, I'm not sure why someone else should.

* task aligning (We have different tasks, how do we do them together in a way that is mutually beneficial?)

- Lae sees her tasks with the Church differently than surveying and/or culling (which monks don't get anyway) so she'd ask a close friend or a Templar to help her, but otherwise she tries not to involve others. As many people are aware there are a lot in the game who aren't "kosher" with the Church.

* social prerequisites for grouping (Now that I've found a good candidate, how should I meet this person and ask them to go slaughter a bunch of beings?)

- 90% of the time if you communicate via the pendant, people will answer and find out where to meet you. It won't happen everytime, heck - you may get a task where three people want to help and then get another where everyone is busy. Ask on the pendant, the worst that people can say is "no".

* actual logistical issues (how do I communicate with group candidates to get started? crystal amulets are nice for private comms and all once they are negotiated, but unless you want to advertise your hunt over the public esp channel or just happen to find your group members, how do you organize the actual group?)

-Private esp would be nice, but we don't have that luxury yet. :<

Rithiel · Post by **Rithiel** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:15 am

I was thinking the other day about group tasks. Basically, if you ask for a task while leading a group, you'd be given one harder than you'd normally get, but worth more points. Any interest in us developing this, or is it not worth the time?

Evelyn · Post by **Evelyn** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:31 am

That sounds nifty! I'd be up for group tasks.

Landion · Post by **Landion** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:52 am

I'll chime in to add that while you may think your low skilled character is 'outmatched' in a dangerous area, a brand new character can do just fine in a group thanks to how strong group mechanics are.

If a few people are guarding the new person, and the beastie you are fighting has its defenses pushed down by the group, knocked down, mezermized, rooted? Easy peasy, even with no combat skill, you'll never miss an attack!

Combat mechanics do offer pretty big combat bonuses to groups. (As evident by how fast you guys could take down Shar and Sceptus who are/were significantly more powerful than any other players or even other NPC's during that invasion. Had I been 'playing by the rules' you guys would have killed each of them a lot sooner.

Not to mention if you have 2 monks together, using sunbeam on one another to keep eachother from getting too tired? Yeah... It's NOT easy to kill people in an effective group.
(Even when dumping 100's of critters on Shadgard. Bwahaha)

That said, I do see the potential to have quests be group oriented, and perhaps some bonuses for skillgains could be cool. We as GM's have to consider the potential for abuse ther as well and would also necessitate checks, and to make sure this wasn't abused via multi-character botting and the like.

That said, when I play I tend to solo unless someone goes out of the way to invite me. Or if there's some event going on, (though usually I'm behind the scenes instead of actually playing in those situations.) Mostly though, I tend solo out of time restrictions and habit more than anything else.

KianTheArcher · Post by **KianTheArcher** » Fri Jul 20, 2012 12:42 pm

One of the biggest reasons I think I don't end up grouping on characters is because the means of Guild Advancement doesn't really facilitate group play anymore. Before Evelyn and I took a long break, we used to both go hunt at the town of Tarueka quite often together, since I gained GP for fighting the same mobs that she could get GP for. As it is now, t's typically VERY inefficient to try to gain guildpoints with other people, unless they are in the same guild (and even then if there's a big difference in skill, it's pretty inefficient since you have to go to one place, then another, THEN turn the tasks in, etc.).

The other reason Kian doesn't currently group (or ask for help) is for IC reasons.

But overall, in regards to gaining Guild Rank, it just seems better to do it alone unfortunately, ESPECIALLY on ranged stealth characters since you can't guard someone who's hiding.

But, I do actually enjoy grouping. Invasions where there's good tactical group combat is one of the most fun parts of this game, I find. That's probably one of the reasons I stuck around, to be honest.