GMs want to get in on the player character experience

[Rias]

Some of the GMs - myself in particular - want to get in more on the player character experience side, and just general enjoyment of playing the game. I won't speak for the other GMs, but it's been a long while since I've actually played my game(s) in earnest. I'll run around a little at times on my PC, but I don't have much interaction with others or the world, beyond some basic mechanical grind and some rare very light RP. While some might think that's a good thing and that GMs should just stick to GMing, I would disagree for a number of reasons:

- GMs should enjoy actually playing the game they GM for. It's a huge motivator and way to maintain interest in the game overall.
- Playing the game as a PC helps the GMs maintain a more realistic perspective of how the game actually feels to play as a player.
- Playing the game as a PC is a great source of inspiration for working on things that would feel awesome to experience as a player. Nothing inspires development of cool stuff quite like experiencing situations that make you think "oh man, it would be so cool if my character could ..."
- GMs should be able to just kick back and have fun sometimes!

I talked with the other GMs, and a number of us have decided we want to whip up some characters and get a fresh experience with the game. This will NOT include any kind of special privilege or anything - the GMs will be playing strictly as player characters on separate non-GM accounts. No exclusive guilds or classes, no privileged or unique faction standings. We want to be transparent about how we're going about this, and the fact that we're doing it at all.

I thought it would be good to get some kind of IC group established so we have a foundation for our characters sticking together and frequently grouping up. We also thought it would be awesome to get some of you folks in on it! How fun would it be to have a consistent big old group that gets together to RP, cull Lost Lands baddies like infested and nethrim and bandits, and just generally kind of hang out?

So, would any of you folks be interested in helping us out and joining us? I think it'd be great to have some kind of Company to hold us all together. Fairly basic in purpose, nothing especially focused or niche, no particular affiliations or creeds, just some kind of like Lost Lands Adventuring Company. A group who go out and explore, cull the numberless hordes of monsters, provide each other with various services, generally support one another through the trials of Lost Lands life, sing and drink together, whatever! Not that it couldn't ever develop organically into something with more purpose or direction over time, but starting out fairly broad and basic would be ideal for inclusion purposes.

One important thing though - we (the GMs) don't want to be leading or running anything. We just want to be tagging along as members of the group, taking a break from CLOK-related positions of responsibility while on these characters so we can just play. So, one of you non-GMs would have to take up the mantle of leadership! Maybe form a small council of leaders beyond the founder if that's more your style - it would be less pressure on any one individual.

Anyone feeling this? Any further ideas on the subject? I really don't want to end up with a group that gives off sketchy "Cool GM Characters Only, No Non-GMs Allowed" vibes.

[artus]

I'm definitely in for this. I can see some concerns regarding gm perks blah blah blah because it's been abused before on so many other muds, but I don't really see it happening here especially when you guys are transparent about it. It's a game everyone should enjoy. What fun is it there when all you can do is code code code and grind? Na man, jump in and have fun!

I may not be doing much these days aside from semi-passive, still at the keyboard light grinding due to massive ooc distractions and upcoming job preparation (oh yes, I did get a life and a job finally) all around but I'm in whenever I can and would love to see gms take some gm time off to join the silly crowd. Rias, you in particular should just stop scaring us with some invasions and be the one invated.:p Just kidding though.

Love yall. Sorry for being somewhat absent ic btw.

Ps. Forgot to mention; there's definitely one major merit for doing this too. If there are bugs or problems player talk about, gms can also get first hand experience with said bugs/problems and know if it is or is not quite so on player's perspective. Sometimes you just don't see stuff when you work on things on paper. Only until you start using what you work on can you feel it. I was running some background loop on my own soundpack and found a gap in one of the loops and just had to come back and add to this post. Welcome to player experience, everyone.

[Gorth]

Idea is good. Large scale going out to adventure and kill stuff might be a problem sometimes, with skill disparities, but who knows. That's fun sometimes, too.

[Zeldryn]

I, for one, would be fracking honored.

May I suggest.. The Lost Legion as a working name? I do know a certain enterprising islander who would be just so fond of walking around with his own band of sellswords.

Do let me know if you might be interested in his leadership. He's down to clown however it goes.

In all seriousness though-- I'm so glad to see the enthusiasm and the excitement from the staff side. I say anything we can do as players to help you guys vibe with the experience like we do is worthwhile! If there's anything I can do, i'm happy to, as always.

[Squeak]

Down with it.

I'll throw in with Z and add that if he wants a hand, I'm happy to help get something going. Assuming people actually want to play with my little gruff, ass-ish, hunter.

[Smoothcoffee]

Two things!

1. As a person with GM experience consisting of a significant portion of my life, I am completely on board with GMs getting to enjoy playing their game. It's really important for people to connect to the work they've put so much time and effort behind in ways of playing, not just creating for it. I highly encourage you all do this, have fun, stir up some trouble, and basically jump in with both feet. I'm really excited and happy for you to finally enjoy the work you've given us to enjoy and create so many memories surrounding for the past several years.
2. I AM ALL IN! I'm so excited for some good old camaraderie!

[Ninetales16]

I am very, very excited to see this developing into a thing we all can enjoy together as players, regardless of any position or status. I am extremely happy and really hope everyone will have a good time!
I, for one, would be supremely touched if I would only intersect with this company, in the first place, let alone joining it. i'm honestly feeling that it would be kind of a daunting task, and quite complicated to manage for my character for various reasons. so, if my character would intersect with this merry group of people sometime, I would be very, very happy!
This seriously gives me a very, very good vibe. I will return to the game soon-ish, after this short break I am having.
Have fun. enjoy the lost lands, but don't let yourselves get lost in them! :)

[Adresin]

I love this!

I'm not sure if Alia would necessarily join, it would depend on how it turns out IC. However if allowed that doesn't mean she wouldn't participate in some nethrim cleansing with a group, that'd be fun!

That said, I want to say that I 100% support GMs enjoying the game with their own PCs. Like others, I've seen this abused horribly, with admin using their non admin characters to mess with people then use admin run NPCs to get them out of trouble, nonsense like that. Or admin PCs leading everything and not giving the non admin people a chance to do anything. HOwever, I don't see that happening here. I love the transparency, and like SC said, it's very important for admin to actually experience the game they create or help run. I was admin on a different game, including coding, and there's nothing like experiencing things to spark ideas or realize frustrations. It's also a good feeling to find a problem and go oh! Hey, I can fix that real quick. Besides, I'd love to have a chance to rp with the GMs, assuming I haven't already and just don't know it. Fun times! And yes, you deserve a chance to just kick back and enjoy yourself too! So I'm totally in support of this and excited about it.

[verel]

Definitely excited about this. Nice to know the GM's are wanting to actually play the game and honestly I was under the impression that most of them already did play.

But hey, a group of adventurers sounds like my type of thing. My main character will probably be all in on this. It'd be good for RP purposes and will give us all a decent shot at getting some great IC work done.

Enjoy playing Clok! Y'all work hard enough on it that I'm sorta surprised none of the GM's have considered playing the game.

[Mirazia]

Some of us do play! But it's been some time since I personally have had a fresh player experience so I am certainly one of the GMs on board with this idea, to try something new and step out of my comfort zone of usual character tropes.

No idea what that will be yet, but I'm excited!

[ydia]

I'm okay with GMs playing their own game. However, there is already a company that sounds sort of like what Tandor tried to start in game. I have a document in my portfolio about it. I don't see Ydia joining any company until she sees how they go, but it will be interesting to see what happens. Tandor's idea was to map out the world and have adventures with the company.

[Dorn]

While I hugely support the idea of GMs playing their own game, even if it is in brief surges of enthusiasm, (How else can creators appreciate/understand what they've created?), why make it so public?

Even with the caveats you've mentioned, whatever happens it will always be "The GM group", and if you truly want to experience what it is to be a player in your own game, it shouldn't have the fanfare and you guys should have just rolled up, formed an organization, and saw where it ended up.

[verel]

While I hugely support the idea of GMs playing their own game, even if it is in brief surges of enthusiasm, (How else can creators appreciate/understand what they've created?), why make it so public?

Even with the caveats you've mentioned, whatever happens it will always be "The GM group", and if you truly want to experience what it is to be a player in your own game, it shouldn't have the fanfare and you guys should have just rolled up, formed an organization, and saw where it ended up.

I could see where you're coming from. But perhaps their intention was to tell us that they want to play as well so none of us asks any questions about whether they'll have advantages or not due to their status as GM's.

I feel like if they didn't say anything, there would be questions floating around so the transparency is a good thing in this case. But I understand your opinion.

[Dorn]

While I hugely support the idea of GMs playing their own game, even if it is in brief surges of enthusiasm, (How else can creators appreciate/understand what they've created?), why make it so public?

Even with the caveats you've mentioned, whatever happens it will always be "The GM group", and if you truly want to experience what it is to be a player in your own game, it shouldn't have the fanfare and you guys should have just rolled up, formed an organization, and saw where it ended up.

I could see where you're coming from. But perhaps their intention was to tell us that they want to play as well so none of us asks any questions about whether they'll have advantages or not due to their status as GM's.

I feel like if they didn't say anything, there would be questions floating around so the transparency is a good thing in this case. But I understand your opinion.

If they'd rolled up as a group, and just rocked up as "fresh players" especially with fresh accounts would anyone have known unless they were close to the GMs?

Totally respect the intention, and feel it is hugely worthwhile, but could have been approached better.

[Rias]

I'll clarify that we all still have our main PCs that we've had for many years. While I'm sure some have been guessed as being played by GMs over the years (thank you to everyone who has the class to not be public about these guesses or speculations by the way), most of us have kept quiet about them and hoped to be able to just play them without suspicion or being treated weirdly. I'm definitely not giving mine up and will continue to go back to them, we're just doing this specific batch of characters to have a fresher experience, and we thought it would be fun to rope in players as well and kick-start the whole thing by talking about it here. There's no telling if our new characters will be long-term or particularly involved. I plan to play mine fairly casually. I also don't intend to tell anyone who my specific character is, which is by no means a particularly effective cloak but I think it's still better than just letting everyone know which GM is playing which PC.

The hope is that if anyone is interested in setting up the IC player-run Company, they'll post about it publicly on the in-game board or something so we can seek out joining it purely in-character without having to reveal who our specific characters are, and we can just be some non-leadership members of it along with anyone else, while hopefully the group will continue to do its thing even if the GM team ends up not playing these particular characters as often down the line. I still have my main PC(s) that I'm sure I'll get back into because I still love them! It's important that this Company, if one is created at all, be created to be able to stand on its own legs and not with the expectation that it'll only have worth if these GM-run characters are a part of it.

Rias, you in particular should just stop scaring us with some invasions and be the one invaded

You're not wrong. I'd love to be able to participate in an invasion defense as a PC!

If there are bugs or problems player talk about, gms can also get first hand experience with said bugs/problems and know if it is or is not quite so on player's perspective.

Definitely. It's one thing to have an issue reported, it's another thing to experience it personally. May this result in many more bugfixes and quality-of-life updates!

May I suggest.. The Lost Legion as a working name? I do know a certain enterprising islander who would be just so fond of walking around with his own band of sellswords.

I think to start it'd be best to keep it more open and vaguely about just living Lost Lands life, so it's open to as many people as possible. Then if some aren't particularly into combat or the idea of being some kind of hired mercenary, they can still join and get in on the other actvities like exploration or socialization or whatnot.

Not that you shouldn't also start your own band of sellswords, because you should! Don't forget that there's no limit on how many Companies a character can join, but each character can only create one Company themselves.

if you truly want to experience what it is to be a player in your own game, it shouldn't have the fanfare and you guys should have just rolled up, formed an organization, and saw where it ended up.

Sure, but this particular idea isn't to try and anonymously moonlight as players. We already do and have done that. I thought it would be fun to try and get a more organized and deliberate big group together with a bunch of people, with us playing as new PCs (not as new players), but we really didn't want to have to be the ones running the group because that would be extra responsibilities and pressure when we just want to be playing. Plus, that could also could get weird or set false expectations when people realize it's a group run by GM PCs and think it's going to have some kind of special clout or privilege or exclusivity as a result. I know it's not a perfect approach, and maybe it's even a bit goofy, but I figured it was worth a try! If it doesn't work out well there's nothing stopping us from making some other characters more quietly, or diving back into our other PCs we've been moonlighting as over the course of the game's history.

[Dorn]

if you truly want to experience what it is to be a player in your own game, it shouldn't have the fanfare and you guys should have just rolled up, formed an organization, and saw where it ended up.

Sure, but this particular idea isn't to try and anonymously moonlight as players. We already do and have done that. I thought it would be fun to try and get a more organized and deliberate big group together with a bunch of people, with us playing as new PCs (not as new players), but we really didn't want to have to be the ones running the group because that would be extra responsibilities and pressure when we just want to be playing. Plus, that could also could get weird or set false expectations when people realize it's a group run by GM PCs and think it's going to have some kind of special clout or privilege or exclusivity as a result. I know it's not a perfect approach, and maybe it's even a bit goofy, but I figured it was worth a try! If it doesn't work out well there's nothing stopping us from making some other characters more quietly, or diving back into our other PCs we've been moonlighting as over the course of the game's history.

I totally get the desire for transparency, but I feel like by immediately saying you're GMs, you're quickly going to lose any fundamental exposure to understanding what the game is actually like.

So to take your initial points...

Code: Select all

- GMs should enjoy actually playing the game they GM for. It's a huge motivator and way to maintain interest in the game overall.
- Playing the game as a PC helps the GMs maintain a more realistic perspective of how the game actually feels to play as a player.
- Playing the game as a PC is a great source of inspiration for working on things that would feel awesome to experience as a player. Nothing inspires development of cool stuff quite like experiencing situations that make you think "oh man, it would be so cool if my character could ..."
- GMs should be able to just kick back and have fun sometimes!

You're achieving 1 and 4, and not even attempting on 2 and 3 because you're not playing it as PCs. If anything, you've pretty much gone, "HEY, WE'RE GMS." You might be rolling up fresh, but by simply stating you're all GM-characters will already influence your gameplay.

Just rocking up as a group of "players" and trying to get some sort of generic/open group would have given you a much clearer picture of what it means to play your own product. Maintaining an open look at involvement in your activities would also have ensured few people could validly critique it if the fact you were GMs ever came to light. With an organization with a very loose set of rules beyond say, "A desire to explore the Lost Lands," it would have been relatively untaxing. As mentioned, I don't feel like it is a bad idea at all, I just really don't think you should have gone public about it. You're immediately ruining 2 out of 4 of your initial objectives.

[Rias]

not even attempting on 2 and 3 because you're not playing it as PCs

No sense in arguing semantics!

I think we'll have a plenty valuable experience playing the game without any GM powers, with all the processes and grinds and progression and such that that entails, even if other people know we're doing it. I don't see people knowing what we're up to having any impact on our ability to draw inspiration from our gameplay experiences to add neat new mechanics, abilities, or quality of life features. It's okay that you disagree, we'll just have to see how it goes!

[Dorn]

not even attempting on 2 and 3 because you're not playing it as PCs

No sense in arguing semantics!

I think we'll have a plenty valuable experience playing the game without any GM powers, with all the processes and grinds and progression and such that that entails, even if other people know we're doing it. I don't see people knowing what we're up to having any impact on our ability to draw inspiration from our gameplay experiences to add neat new mechanics, abilities, or quality of life features. It's okay that you disagree, we'll just have to see how it goes!

Fingers crossed for you all, and hopefully I'm proved wrong.

[Jaster]

I think Dorn might feel better if you also, with equal or greater fanfare, allowed a group of us players to form a Company of new characters with GM powers so we can experience playing the game as GMs!

I will personally vouch that nothing could go wrong.

All in favor, say, "Aye!"

[Southpaw]

I just wanted to drop in here and say that a resident of Shadgard has started a company that sounds very much like this. I encourage anyone interested to check the board IC!
I can't speak for anyone but myself but I personally love the transparency and very much appreciate it.

[RoyceArty]

I just wanted to drop in here and say that a resident of Shadgard has started a company that sounds very much like this. I encourage anyone interested to check the board IC!
I can't speak for anyone but myself but I personally love the transparency and very much appreciate it.

As the lad this might refer to, I am currently running The Lost Rangers. I don't mind companies named similarly (specially considering I was on a hiatus, though I feel obligated to warn about plenty of possible confusion... and to hope this warning is heard. Heck, there might be other similarly named companies already.)

Putting that aside, count me in! I'd love to have fun with everyone as a member of other companies, and to also enjoy some company-level RP involving coordination, helping each other or acknowledging each other and so on!